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Depleted Uranium - A world-wide cost?
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Depleted Uranium - A world-wide cost? Reply with quote

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/U.S._signs_38_million_deal_for_0302.html

U.S. signs $38 million deal for depleted uranium tank shells

John Byrne
Published: March 2, 2006

The U.S. Army quietly placed an order for $38 million in depleted uranium rounds last week, bringing the total order from a West-Virginia based company to $77 million for fiscal year 2006, RAW STORY has learned.

The munition is highly controversial. While the Pentagon has been ambiguous about its health toll, leftover rounds from the first Gulf War are believed to have caused a significant increase in cancer and birth defects in Iraq. According to a detailed article by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer in 2002, "Many researchers outside Iraq, and several U.S. veterans organizations, agree; they also suspect depleted uranium of playing a role in Gulf War Syndrome, the still-unexplained malady that has plagued hundreds of thousands of Gulf War veterans."

The new $38 million order was placed with Alliant Techsystems for 120-mm ammunition. Once the new pact is completed the firm will have produced 35,000 rounds for the U.S. military.
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The Pentagon uses depleted uranium in its rounds because they say it is extremely effective in penetrating heavy armor.

Depleted uranium remains radioactive for 4.5 billion years. The byproduct of manufacturing nuclear weapons or reactors, the rounds contaminate water and soil. Along some highways in Iraq where the weapon was used during in the first Gulf War, radiation levels register 1,000 times normal background radiation levels. Cancer levels in Iraq are attributed to the shells.

A destroyed Iraqi tank in Basra destroyed by the U.S. weapon registered 2,500 times normal background radiation.

Read more on depleted uranium in the Guardian here, and from the Post Intelligencer here.

In a release, the firm making the weapon said, "Its state-of-the-art composite sabot, propellant, and penetrator technologies give it outstanding accuracy and lethality." UPI first reported on the deal Feb. 20.
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.rense.com/general64/du.htm

Horror Of US Depleted
Uranium In Iraq Threatens World
American Use Of DU is "A crime against humanity which may, in
the eyes of historians, rank with the worst atrocities of all time."
US Iraq Military Vets "are on DU death row, waiting to die."
By James Denver
4-29-5


"I'm horrified. The people out there - the Iraqis, the media and the troops - risk the most appalling ill health. And the radiation from depleted uranium can travel literally anywhere. It's going to destroy the lives of thousands of children, all over the world. We all know how far radiation can travel. Radiation from Chernobyl reached Wales and in Britain you sometimes get red dust from the Sahara on your car."

The speaker is not some alarmist doom-sayer. He is Dr. Chris Busby, the British radiation expert, Fellow of the University of Liverpool in the Faculty of Medicine and UK representative on the European Committee on Radiation Risk, talking about the best-kept secret of this war: the fact that, by illegally using hundreds of tons of depleted uranium (DU) against Iraq, Britain and America have gravely endangered not only the Iraqis but the whole world.

For these weapons have released deadly, carcinogenic and mutagenic, radioactive particles in such abundance that-whipped up by sandstorms and carried on trade winds - there is no corner of the globe they cannot penetrate-including Britain. For the wind has no boundaries and time is on their side: the radioactivity persists for over 4,500,000,000 years and can cause cancer, leukemia, brain damage, kidney failure, and extreme birth defects - killing millions of every age for centuries to come. A crime against humanity which may, in the eyes of historians, rank with the worst atrocities of all time.

These weapons have released deadly, carcinogenic and mutagenic, radioactive particles in such abundance that there is no corner of the globe they cannot penetrate - including Britain. Yet, officially, no crime has been committed. For this story is a dirty story in which the facts have been concealed from those who needed them most. It is also a story we need to know if the people of Iraq are to get the medical care they desperately need, and if our troops, returning from Iraq, are not to suffer as terribly as the veterans of other conflicts in which depleted uranium was used.

A Dirty Tyson

'Depleted' uranium is in many ways a misnomer. For 'depleted' sounds weak. The only weak thing about depleted uranium is its price. It is dirt cheap, toxic, waste from nuclear power plants and bomb production. However, uranium is one of earth's heaviest elements and DU packs a Tyson's punch, smashing through tanks, buildings and bunkers with equal ease, spontaneously catching fire as it does so, and burning people alive. 'Crispy critters' is what US servicemen call those unfortunate enough to be close. And, when John Pilger encountered children killed at a greater distance he wrote: "The children's skin had folded back, like parchment, revealing veins and burnt flesh that seeped blood, while the eyes, intact, stared straight ahead. I vomited." (Daily Mirror)

The millions of radioactive uranium oxide particles released when it burns can kill just as surely, but far more terribly. They can even be so tiny they pass through a gas mask, making protection against them impossible. Yet, small is not beautiful. For these invisible killers indiscriminately attack men, women, children and even babies in the womb-and do the gravest harm of all to children and unborn babies.

A Terrible Legacy

Doctors in Iraq have estimated that birth defects have increased by 2-6 times, and 3-12 times as many children have developed cancer and leukaemia since 1991. Moreover, a report published in The Lancet in 1998 said that as many as 500 children a day are dying from these sequels to war and sanctions and that the death rate for Iraqi children under 5 years of age increased from 23 per 1000 in 1989 to 166 per thousand in 1993. Overall, cases of lymphoblastic leukemia more than quadrupled with other cancers also increasing 'at an alarming rate'. In men, lung, bladder, bronchus, skin, and stomach cancers showed the highest increase. In women, the highest increases were in breast and bladder cancer, and non-Hodgkin lymphoma.1

On hearing that DU had been used in the Gulf in 1991, the UK Atomic Energy Authority sent the Ministry of Defense a special report on the potential damage to health and the environment. It said that it could cause half a million additional cancer deaths in Iraq over 10 years. In that war the authorities only admitted to using 320 tons of DU-although the Dutch charity LAKA estimates the true figure is closer to 800 tons. Many times that may have been spread across Iraq by this year's war. The devastating damage all this DU will do to the health and fertility of the people of Iraq now, and for generations to come, is beyond imagining.

The radioactivity persists for over 4,500,000,000 years killing millions of every age for centuries to come. This is a crime against humanity which may rank with the worst atrocities of all time.

We must also count the numberless thousands of miscarried babies. Nobody knows how many Iraqis have died in the womb since DU contaminated their world. But it is suggested that troops who were only exposed to DU for the brief period of the war were still excreting uranium in their semen 8 years later and some had 100 times the so-called 'safe limit' of uranium in their urine. The lack of government interest in the plight of veterans of the 1991 war is reflected in a lack of academic research on the impact of DU but informal research has found a high incidence of birth defects in their children and that the wives of men who served in Iraq have three times more miscarriages than the wives of servicemen who did not go there.

Since DU darkened the land Iraq has seen birth defects which would break a heart of stone: babies with terribly foreshortened limbs, with their intestines outside their bodies, with huge bulging tumors where their eyes should be, or with a single eye-like Cyclops, or without eyes, or without limbs, and even without heads. Significantly, some of the defects are almost unknown outside textbooks showing the babies born near A-bomb test sites in the ..

Doctors report that many women no longer say 'Is it a girl or a boy?' but simply, 'Is it normal, doctor?' Moreover this terrible legacy will not end. The genes of their parents may have been damaged for ever, and the damaging DU dust is ever-present.

Blue on Blue

What the governments of America and Britain have done to the people of Iraq they have also done to their own soldiers, in both wars. And they have done it knowingly. For the battlefields have been thick with DU and soldiers have had to enter areas heavily contaminated by bombing. Moreover, their bodies have not only been assaulted by DU but also by a vaccination regime which violated normal protocols, experimental vaccines, nerve agent pills, and organophosphate pesticides in their tents. Yet, though the hazards of DU were known, British and American troops were not warned of its dangers. Nor were they given thorough medical checks on their return-even though identifying it quickly might have made it possible to remove some of it from their body. Then, when a growing number became seriously ill, and should have been sent to top experts in radiation damage and neurotoxins, many were sent to a psychiatrist.

Over 200,000 US troops who returned from the 1991 war are now invalided out with ailments officially attributed to service in Iraq-that's 1 in 3. In contrast, the British government's failure to fully assess the health of returning troops, or to monitor their health, means no one even knows how many have died or become gravely ill since their return. However, Gulf veterans' associations say that, of 40,000 or so fighting fit men and women who saw active service, at least 572 have died prematurely since coming home and 5000 may be ill. An alarming number are thought to have taken their own lives, unable to bear the torment of the innumerable ailments which have combined to take away their career, their sexuality, their ability to have normal children, and even their ability to breathe or walk normally. As one veteran puts it, they are 'on DU death row, waiting to die'.

Whatever other factors there may be, some of their illnesses are strikingly similar to those of Iraqis exposed to DU dust. For example, soldiers have also fathered children without eyes. And, in a group of eight servicemen whose babies lack eyes seven are known to have been directly exposed to DU dust.

They too have fathered children with stunted arms, and rare abnormalities classically associated with radiation damage. They too seem prone to cancer and leukemia. Tellingly, so are EU soldiers who served as peacekeepers in the Balkans, where DU was also used. Indeed their leukemia rate has been so high that several EU governments have protested at the use of DU.

The Vital Evidence

Despite all that evidence of the harm done by DU, governments on both sides of the Atlantic have repeatedly claimed that as it emits only 'low level' radiation DU is harmless. Award-winning scientist, Dr. Rosalie Bertell who has led UN medical commissions, has studied 'low-level' radiation for 30 years. 2 She has found that uranium oxide particles have more than enough power to harm cells, and describes their pulses of radiation as hitting surrounding cells 'like flashes of lightning' again and again in a single second.2 Like many scientists worldwide who have studied this type of radiation, she has found that such 'lightning strikes' can damage DNA and cause cell mutations which lead to cancer.

Moreover, these particles can be taken up by body fluids and travel through the body, damaging more than one organ. To compound all that, Dr. Bertell has found that this particular type of radiation can cause the body's communication systems to break down, leading to malfunctions in many vital organs of the body and to many medical problems. A striking fact, since many veterans of the first Gulf war suffer from innumerable, seemingly unrelated, ailments.

In addition, recent research by Eric Wright, Professor of Experimental Haematology at Dundee University, and others, have shown two ways in which such radiation can do far more damage than has been thought. The first is that a cell which seems unharmed by radiation can produce cells with diverse mutations several cell generations later. (And mutations are at the root of cancer and birth defects.) This 'radiation-induced genomic instability' is compounded by 'the bystander effect' by which cells mutate in unison with others which have been damaged by radiation-rather as birds swoop and turn in unison. Put together, these two mechanisms can greatly increase the damage done by a single source of radiation, such as a DU particle. Moreover, it is now clear that there are marked genetic differences in the way individuals respond to radiation-with some being far more likely to develop cancer than others. So the fact that some veterans of the first Gulf war seem relatively unharmed by their exposure to DU in no way proves that DU did not damage others.

The Price of Truth

That the evidence from Iraq and from our troops, and the research findings of such experts, have been ignored may be no accident. A US report, leaked in late 1995, allegedly says, 'The potential for health effects from DU exposure is real; however it must be viewed in perspective... the financial implications of long-term disability payments and healthcare costs would be excessive.'3

Clearly, with hundreds of thousands gravely ill in Iraq and at least a quarter of a million UK and US troops seriously ill, huge disability claims might be made not only against the governments of Britain and America if the harm done by DU were acknowledged. There might also be huge claims against companies making DU weapons and some of their directors are said to be extremely close to the White House. How close they are to Downing Street is a matter for speculation, but arms sales makes a considerable contribution to British trade. So the massive whitewashing of DU over the past 12 years, and the way that governments have failed to test returning troops, seemed to disbelieve them, and washed their hands of them, may be purely to save money.

The possibility that financial considerations have led the governments of Britain and America to cynically avoid taking responsibility for the harm they have done not only to the people of Iraq but to their own troops may seem outlandish. Yet DU weapons weren't used by the other side and no other explanation fits the evidence. For, in the days before Britain and America first used DU in war its hazards were no secret.4 One American study in 1990 said DU was 'linked to cancer when exposures are internal, [and to] chemical toxicity-causing kidney damage'. While another openly warned that exposure to these particles under battlefield conditions could lead to cancers of the lung and bone, kidney damage, non-malignant lung disease, neuro-cognitive disorders, chromosomal damage and birth defects.5

A Culture of Denial

In 1996 and 1997 UN Human Rights Tribunals condemned DU weapons for illegally breaking the Geneva Convention and classed them as 'weapons of mass destruction' 'incompatible with international humanitarian and human rights law'. Since then, following leukemia in European peacekeeping troops in the Balkans and Afghanistan (where DU was also used), the EU has twice called for DU weapons to be banned.

Yet, far from banning DU, America and Britain stepped up their denials of the harm from this radioactive dust as more and more troops from the first Gulf war and from action and peacekeeping in the Balkans and Afghanistan have become seriously ill. This is no coincidence. In 1997, while citing experiments, by others, in which 84 percent of dogs exposed to inhaled uranium died of cancer of the lungs, Dr. Asaf Durakovic, then Professor of Radiology and Nuclear Medicine at Georgetown University in Washington was quoted as saying, 'The [US government's] Veterans Administration asked me to lie about the risks of incorporating depleted uranium in the human body.' He concluded, 'uranium does cause cancer, uranium does cause mutation, and uranium does kill. If we continue with the irresponsible contamination of the biosphere, and denial of the fact that human life is endangered by the deadly isotope uranium, then we are doing disservice to ourselves, disservice to the truth, disservice to God and to all generations who follow.' Not what the authorities wanted to hear and his research was suddenly blocked.

During 12 years of ever-growing British whitewash the authorities have abolished military hospitals, where there could have been specialized research on the effects of DU and where expertise in treating DU victims could have built up. And, not content with the insult of suggesting the gravely disabling symptoms of Gulf veterans are imaginary they have refused full pensions to many. For, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the current House of Commons briefing paper on DU hazards says 'it is judged that any radiation effects from possible exposures are extremely unlikely to be a contributory factor to the illnesses currently being experienced by some Gulf war veterans.' Note how over a quarter of a million sick and dying US and UK vets are called 'some'.

The Way Ahead

Britain and America not only used DU in this year's Iraq war, they dramatically increased its use-from a minimum of 320 tons in the previous war to at minimum of 1500 tons in this one. And this time the use of DU wasn't limited to anti-tank weapons-as it had largely been in the previous Gulf war-but was extended to the guided missiles, large bunker busters and big 2000-pound bombs used in Iraq's cities. This means that Iraq's cities have been blanketed in lethal particles-any one of which can cause cancer or deform a child. In addition, the use of DU in huge bombs which throw the deadly particles higher and wider in huge plumes of smoke means that billions of deadly particles have been carried high into the air-again and again and again as the bombs rained down-ready to be swept worldwide by the winds.

The Royal Society has suggested the solution is massive decontamination in Iraq. That could only scratch the surface. For decontamination is hugely expensive and, though it may reduce the risks in some of the worst areas, it cannot fully remove them. For DU is too widespread on land and water. How do you clean up every nook and cranny of a city the size of Baghdad? How can they decontaminate a whole country in which microscopic particles, which cannot be detected with a normal geiger counter, are spread from border to border? And how can they clean up all the countries downwind of Iraq-and, indeed, the world?

So there are only two things we can do to mitigate this crime against humanity. The first is to provide the best possible medical care for the people of Iraq, for our returning troops and for those who served in the last Gulf war and, through that, minimize their suffering. The second is to relegate war, and the production and sale of weapons, to the scrap heap of history-along with slavery and genocide. Then, and only then, will this crime against humanity be expunged, and the tragic deaths from this war truly bring freedom to the people of Iraq, and of the world.
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Guest







PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you want them to do? Kill the enemy with repeats of Dr Phil?
If you want to jump on the anti-US bandwagon, and it is apparent that you do, then you should research the environmental effects that lead has on waterways from places such as rifle ranges or training grounds. It far outweighs the effect of D.U.

By the way... for any potential idiot out there who will read your post and decide it is another reason to hate Bush, militaries all around the world use ordinance which produces D.U, not just the American Army. And with all the wars going on in the world, i'm suprised someone who claims to be so 'environmentally concerned' would focus on the American Military instead of creating threads about how Russia disposes of its Nuclear Waste.

To summarise: you are not concerned with the environment, you simply want to create more anti-americanism.

And for the record.. No i am not American. I'm just not an idiot
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 206


PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depleted uranium is a war issue, it has been used in numerous wars, with different leading heads. It is not a Bush-centric issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
'In the 1970s, The Pentagon reported that the Soviet military had developed armor plating for Warsaw Pact tanks that NATO ammunition couldn't penetrate. The Pentagon began searching for material to make denser bullets. After testing various metals, ordnance researchers settled on depleted uranium. DU was useful in ammunition not only because of its unique physical properties and effectiveness, but also because it was cheap and readily available. Tungsten, the only other candidate, had to be sourced from China. With DU stockpiles estimated to be more than 500,000 tons, the financial burden of housing this amount of low-level radioactive waste was very apparent. It was therefore more economical to use depleted uranium rather than storing it. Thus, from the late 1970s, the U.S., the Soviet Union, Britain and France, began converting their stockpiles of depleted uranium into kinetic energy penetrators'.

In short, because it was a cheap option for doing the damage in war that they wanted to do.

Bans on the use of the subtance have been called for around the world. The more stuff we dump into the atomosphere the more likely we are to have more and more children born with mutations/deformities. It is just another by-product of war that only leads to negative outcomes, where we are all harmed. There is no good outcome from war.

We were told long ago to change our energy using ways and now climate change is not a 'scaremonger's' story, it is an accepted reality. Must we be doomed to keep doing harmful things because of the financial gains until we are beyond hope?

Your lead arguments only serve to reinforce how destructive weapons are, irrespective of their type.

To dismiss the DU issue as you have done, though, to me is idiotic.
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 206


PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People should be concerned. Further...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060503&articleId=2374
Depleted Uranium - Far Worse Than 9/11
Depleted Uranium Dust - Public Health Disaster For The People Of Iraq and Afghanistan

by Doug Westerman

Global Research, May 3, 2006
Vital Truths and Information Clearing House

In 1979, depleted uranium (DU) particles escaped from the National Lead Industries factory near Albany, N.Y.,which was manufacturing DU weapons for the U.S military. The particles traveled 26 miles and were discovered in a laboratory filter by Dr. Leonard Dietz, a nuclear physicist. This discovery led to a shut down of the factory in 1980, for releasing morethan 0.85 pounds of DU dust into the atmosphere every month, and involved a cleanup of contaminated properties costing over 100 million dollars.

Imagine a far worse scenario. Terrorists acquire a million pounds of the deadly dust and scatter it in populated areas throughout the U.S. Hundreds of children report symptoms. Many acquire cancer and leukemia, suffering an early and painful death. Huge increases in severe birth defects are reported. Oncologists are overwhelmed. Soccer fields, sand lots and parks, traditional play areas for kids, are no longer safe. People lose their most basic freedom, the ability to go outside and safely breathe. Sounds worse than 9/11? Welcome to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dr. Jawad Al-Ali (55), director of the Oncology Center at the largest hospital in Basra, Iraq stated, at a recent ( 2003) conference in Japan:

"Two strange phenomena have come about in Basra which I have never seen before. The first is double and triple cancers in one patient. For example, leukemia and cancer of the stomach. We had one patient with 2 cancers - one in his stomach and kidney. Months later, primary cancer was developing in his other kidney--he had three different cancer types. The second is the clustering of cancer in families. We have 58 families here with more than one person affected by cancer. Dr Yasin, a general Surgeon here has two uncles, a sister and cousin affected with cancer. Dr Mazen, another specialist, has six family members suffering from cancer. My wife has nine members of her family with cancer".

"Children in particular are susceptible to DU poisoning. They have a much higher absorption rate as their blood is being used to build and nourish their bones and they have a lot of soft tissues. Bone cancer and leukemia used to be diseases affecting them the most, however, cancer of the lymph system which can develop anywhere on the body, and has rarely been seen before the age of 12 is now also common.",

"We were accused of spreading propaganda for Saddam before the war. When I have gone to do talks I have had people accuse me of being pro-Saddam. Sometimes I feel afraid to even talk. Regime people have been stealing my data and calling it their own, and using it for their own agendas. The Kuwaitis banned me from entering Kuwait - we were accused of being Saddam supporters."

John Hanchette, a journalism professor at St. Bonaventure University, and one of the founding editors of USA TODAY related the following to DU researcher Leuren Moret. He stated that he had prepared news breaking stories about the effects of DU on Gulf War soldiers and Iraqi citizens, but that each time he was ready to publish, he received a phone call from the Pentagon asking him not to print the story. He has since been replaced as editor of USA TODAY.

Dr. Keith Baverstock, The World Health Organization's chief expert on radiation and health for 11 years and author of an unpublished study has charged that his report " on the cancer risk to civilians in Iraq from breathing uranium contaminated dust " was also deliberately suppressed.

The information released by the U.S. Dept. of Defense is not reliable, according to some sources even within the military.

In 1997, while citing experiments, by others, in which 84 percent of dogs exposed to inhaled uranium died of cancer of the lungs, Dr. Asaf Durakovic, then Professor of Radiology and Nuclear Medicine at Georgetown University in Washington was quoted as saying,

"The [US government's] Veterans Administration asked me to lie about the risks of incorporating depleted uranium in the human body."


At that time Dr. Durakovic was a colonel in the U.S. Army. He has since left the military, to found the Uranium Medical Research Center, a privately funded organization with headquarters in Canada.

PFC Stuart Grainger of 23 Army Division, 34th Platoon. (Names and numbers have been changed) was diagnosed with cancer several after returning from Iraq. Seven other men in the Platoon also have malignancies.

Doug Rokke, U.S. Army contractor who headed a clean-up of depleted uranium after the first Gulf War states:,

"Depleted uranium is a crime against God and humanity."

Rokke's own crew, a hundred employees, was devastated by exposure to the fine dust. He stated:

"When we went to the Gulf, we were all really healthy,"

After performing clean-up operations in the desert (mistakenly without protective gear), 30 members of his staff died, and most others"including Rokke himself"developed serious health problems. Rokke now has reactive airway disease, neurological damage, cataracts, and kidney problems.

"We warned the Department of Defense in 1991 after the Gulf War. Their arrogance is beyond comprehension.


Yet the D.O.D still insists such ingestion is "not sufficient to make troops seriously ill in most cases."

Then why did it make the clean up crew seriously or terminally ill in nearly all cases?

Marion Falk, a retired chemical physicist who built nuclear bombs for more than 20 years at Lawrence Livermore Lab, was asked if he thought that DU weapons operate in a similar manner as a dirty bomb.

"That's exactly what they are. They fit the description of a dirty bomb in every way."

According to Falk, more than 30 percent of the DU fired from the cannons of U.S. tanks is reduced to particles one-tenth of a micron (one millionth of a meter) in size or smaller on impact. "The larger the bang" the greater the amount of DU that is dispersed into the atmosphere, Falk said. With the larger missiles and bombs, nearly 100 percent of the DU is reduced to radioactive dust particles of the "micron size" or smaller, he said.

When asked if the main purpose for using it was for destroying things and killing people, Falk was more specific:

"I would say that it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people."


When a DU round or bomb strikes a hard target, most of its kinetic energy is converted to heat " sufficient heat to ignite the DU. From 40% to 70% of the DU is converted to extremely fine dust particles of ceramic uranium oxide (primarily dioxide, though other formulations also occur). Over 60% of these particles are smaller than 5 microns in diameter, about the same size as the cigarette ash particles in cigarette smoke and therefore respirable.

Because conditions are so chaotic in Iraq, the medical infrastructure has been greatly compromised. In terms of both cancer and birth defects due to DU, only a small fraction of the cases are being reported.

Doctors in southern Iraq are making comparisons to the birth defects that followed the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII. They have numerous photos of infants born without brains, with their internal organs outside their bodies, without sexual organs, without spines, and the list of deformities goes on an on. Such birth defects were extremely rare in Iraq prior to the large scale use of DU. Weapons. Now they are commonplace. In hospitals across Iraq, the mothers are no longer asking, "Doctor, is it a boy or girl?" but rather, "Doctor, is it normal?" The photos are horrendous, they can be viewed on the following website

Ross B. Mirkarimi, a spokesman at The Arms Control Research Centre stated:

"Unborn children of the region are being asked to pay the highest price, the integrity of their DNA."

Prior to her death from leukemia in Sept. 2004, Nuha Al Radi , an accomplished Iraqi artist and author of the "Baghdad Diaries" wrote:

"Everyone seems to be dying of cancer. Every day one hears about another acquaintance or friend of a friend dying. How many more die in hospitals that one does not know? Apparently, over thirty percent of Iraqis have cancer, and there are lots of kids with leukemia."

"The depleted uranium left by the U.S. bombing campaign has turned Iraq into a cancer-infested country. For hundreds of years to come, the effects of the uranium will continue to wreak havoc on Iraq and its surrounding areas."

This excerpt in her diary was written in 1993, after Gulf War I (Approximately 300 tons of DU ordinance, mostly in desert areas) but before Operation Iraqi Freedom, (Est. 1,700 tons with much more near major population centers). So, it's 5-6 times worse now than it was when she wrote than diary entry!! Estimates of the percentage of D.U. which was 'aerosolized' into fine uranium oxide dust are approximately 30-40%. That works out to over one million pounds of dust scattered throughout Iraq.

As a special advisor to the World Health Organization, the United Nations, and the Iraqi Ministry of Health, Dr. Ahmad Hardan has documented the effects of DU in Iraq between 1991 and 2002.

"American forces admit to using over 300 tons of DU weapons in 1991. The actual figure is closer to 800. This has caused a health crisis that has affected almost a third of a million people. As if that was not enough, America went on and used 200 tons more in Bagdad alone during the recent invasion.

I don"t know about other parts of Iraq, it will take me years to document that.

"In Basra, it took us two years to obtain conclusive proof of what DU does, but we now know what to look for and the results are terrifying."

By far the most devastating effect is on unborn children. Nothing can prepare anyone for the sight of hundreds of preserved fetuses " scarcely human in appearance. Iraq is now seeing babies with terribly foreshortened limbs, with their intestines outside their bodies, with huge bulging tumors where their eyes should be, or with a single eye-like Cyclops, or without eyes, or without limbs, and even without heads. Significantly, some of the defects are almost unknown outside textbooks showing the babies born near A-bomb test sites in the ..



Dr. Hardan also states:

"I arranged for a delegation from Japan's Hiroshima Hospital to come and share their expertise in the radiological diseases we

Are likely to face over time. The delegation told me the Americans had objected and they decided not to come. Similarly, a world famous German cancer specialist agreed to come, only to be told later that he would not be given permission to enter Iraq."

Not only are we poisoning the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, but we are making a concerted effort to keep out specialists from other countries who can help. The U.S. Military doesn"t want the rest of the world to find out what we have done.

Such relatively swift development of cancers has been reported by doctors in hospitals treating civilians following NATO bombing with DU in Yugoslavia in 1998-1999 and the US military invasion of Iraq using DU for the first time in 1991. Medical experts report that this phenomenon of multiple malignancies from unrelated causes has been unknown until now and is a new syndrome associated with internal DU exposure.
Just 467 US personnel were wounded in the three-week Persian Gulf War in 1990-1991. Out of 580,400 soldiers who served in Gulf War I, 11,000 are dead, and by 2000 there were 325,000 on permanent medical disability. This astounding number of disabled vets means that a decade later, 56 percent of those soldiers who served in the first Gulf War now have medical problems.

Although not reported in the mainstream American press, a recent Tokyo tribunal, guided by the principles of International Criminal Law and International Humanitarian Law, found President George W. Bush guilty of war crimes. On March 14, 2004, Nao Shimoyachi, reported in The Japan Times that President Bush was found guilty "for attacking civilians with indiscriminate weapons and other arms,"and the "tribunal also issued recommendations for banning Depleted Uranium shells and other weapons that indiscriminately harm people." Although this was a "Citizen's Court" having no legal authority, the participants were sincere in their determination that international laws have been violated and a war crimes conviction is warranted.

Troops involved in actual combat are not the only servicemen reporting symptoms. Four soldiers from a New York Army National Guard company serving in Iraq are among several members of the same company, the 442nd Military Police, who say they have been battling persistent physical ailments that began last summer in the Iraqi town of Samawah.

"I got sick instantly in June," said Staff Sgt. Ray Ramos, a Brooklyn housing cop. "My health kept going downhill with daily headaches, constant numbness in my hands and rashes on my stomach."

Dr. Asaf Durakovic, UMRC founder, and nuclear medicine expert examined and tested nine soldiers from the company says that four "almost certainly" inhaled radioactive dust from exploded American shells manufactured with depleted uranium. Laboratory tests revealed traces of two manmade forms of uranium in urine samples from four of the soldiers.

If so, the men - Sgt. Hector Vega, Sgt. Ray Ramos, Sgt. Agustin Matos and Cpl. Anthony Yonnone - are the first confirmed cases of inhaled depleted uranium exposure from the current Iraq conflict.

The 442nd, made up for the most part of New York cops, firefighters and correction officers, is based in Orangeburg, Rockland County. Dispatched to Iraq in Easter of 2003, the unit's members had been providing guard duty for convoys, running jails and training Iraqi police. The entire company is due to return home later this month.

"These are amazing results, especially since these soldiers were military police not exposed to the heat of battle," said Dr. Asaf Duracovic, who examined the G.I.s and performed the testing.

In a group of eight U.S. led Coalition servicemen whose babies were born without eyes, seven are known to have been directly exposed to DU dust. In a much group (250 soldiers) exposed during the first Gulf war, 67% of the children conceived after the war had birth defects.

Dr. Durakovic's UMRC research team also conducted a three-week field trip to Iraq in October of 2003. It collected about 100 samples of substances such as soil, civilian urine and the tissue from the corpses of Iraqi soldiers in 10 cities, including Baghdad, Basra and Najaf. Durakovic said preliminary tests show that the air, soil and water samples contained "hundreds to thousands of times" the normal levels of radiation.

"This high level of contamination is because much more depleted uranium was used this year than in (the Gulf War of) 1991," Durakovic told The Japan Times.

"They are hampering efforts to prove the connection between Depleted Uranium and the illness," Durakovic said

"They do not want to admit that they committed war crimes" by using weapons that kill indiscriminately, which are banned under international law."

(NOTE ABOUT DR. DURAKOVIC; First, he was warned to stop his work, then he was fired from his position, then his house was ransacked, and he has also reported receiving death threats. Evidently the U.S. D.O.D is very keen on censoring DU whistle-blowers!)

Dr. Durakovic, UMRC research associates Patricia Horan and Leonard Dietz, published a unique study in the August 2002 issue of Military Medicine Medical Journal. The study is believed to be the first to look at inhaled DU among Gulf War veterans, using the ultrasensitive technique of thermal ionization mass spectrometry, which enabled them to easily distinguish between natural uranium and DU. The study, which examined British, Canadian and U.S. veterans, all suffering typical Gulf War Syndrome ailments, found that, nine years after the war, 14 of 27 veterans studied had DU in their urine. DU also was found in the lung and bone of a deceased Gulf War veteran. That no governmental study has been done on inhaled DU "amounts to a massive malpractice," Dietz said in an interview.

The Japanese began studying DU effects in the southern Iraq in the summer of 2003. They had a Geiger counter which they watched go off the scale on many occasions. During their visit,a local hospital was treating upwards of 600 children per day, many of which suffered symptoms of internal poisoning by radiation. 600 children per day? How many of these children will get cancer and suffer and early and painful death?

"Ingested DU particles can cause up to 1,000 times the damage of an X-ray", said Mary Olson, a nuclear waste specialist and biologist at the Nuclear Information and Resource Service in Washington D.C.

It is this difference in particle size as well as the dust's crystalline structure that make the presence of DU dust in the environment such an extreme hazard, and which differentiates its properties from that of the natural uranium dust that is ubiquitous and to which we all are exposed every day, which seldom reaches such a small size. This point is being stressed, as comparing DU particles to much larger natural ones is misleading.

The U.S. Military and its supporters regularly quote a Rand Corp. Study which uses the natural uranium inhaled by miners.

Particles smaller than 10 microns can access the innermost recesses of lung tissue where they become permanently lodged. Furthermore, if the substance is relatively insoluble, such as the ceramic DU-oxide dust produced from burning DU, it will remain in place for decades, dissolving very slowly into the bloodstream and lymphatic fluids through the course of time. Studies have identified DU in the urine of Gulf War veterans nine years after that conflict, testifying to the permanence of ceramic DU-oxide in the lungs. Thus the effects are far different from natural uranium dust, whose coarse particles are almost entirely excreted by the body within 24 hours.

The military is aware of DU's harmful effects on the human genetic code. A 2001 study of DU's effect on DNA done by Dr. Alexandra C. Miller for the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Md., indicates that DU's chemical instability causes 1 million times more genetic damage than would be expected from its radiation effect alone.

Studies have shown that inhaled nano-particles are far more toxic than micro-sized particles of the same basic chemical composition. British toxicopathologist Vyvyan Howard has reported that the increased toxicity of the nano-particle is due to its size.

For example, when mice were exposed to virus-size particles of Teflon (0.13 microns) in a University of Rochester study, there were no ill effects. But when mice were exposed to nano-particles of Teflon for 15 minutes, nearly all the mice died within 4 hours.

"Exposure pathways for depleted uranium can be through the skin, by inhalation, and ingestion," writes Lauren Moret, another DU researcher. "Nano-particles have high mobility and can easily enter the body. Inhalation of nano-particles of depleted uranium is the most hazardous exposure, because the particles pass through the lung-blood barrier directly into the blood.

"When inhaled through the nose, nano-particles can cross the olfactory bulb directly into the brain through the blood brain barrier, where they migrate all through the brain," she wrote. "Many Gulf era soldiers exposed to depleted uranium have been diagnosed with brain tumors, brain damage and impaired thought processes. Uranium can interfere with the mitochondria, which provide energy for the nerve processes, and transmittal of the nerve signal across synapses in the brain.

Based on dissolution and excretion rate data, it is possible to approximate the amount of DU initially inhaled by these veterans. For the handful of veterans studied, this amount averaged 0.34 milligrams. Knowing the specific activity (radiation rate) for DU allows one to determine that the total radiation (alpha, beta and gamma) occurring from DU and its radioactive decay products within their bodies comes to about 26 radiation events every second, or 800 million events each year. At .34 milligrams per dose, there are over 10 trillion doses floating around Iraq and Afghanistan.

How many additional deaths are we talking about? In the aftermath of the first Gulf War, the UK Atomic Energy Authority came up with estimates for the potential effects of the DU contamination left by the conflict. It calculated that "this could cause "500,000 potential deaths". This was "a theoretical figure", it stressed, that indicated "a significant problem".

The AEA's calculation was made in a confidential memo to the privatized munitions company, Royal Ordnance, dated 30 April 1991. The high number of potential deaths was dismissed as "very far from realistic" by a British defense minister, Lord Gilbert. "Since the rounds were fired in the desert, many miles from the nearest village, it is highly unlikely that the local population would have been exposed to any significant amount of respirable oxide," he said. These remarks were made prior to the more recent invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, where DU munitions were used on a larger scale in and near many of the most populated areas. If the amount of DU ordinance used in the first Gulf War was sufficient to cause 500,000 potential deaths, (had it been used near the populated areas), then what of the nearly six times that amount used in operation Iraqi Freedom, which was used in and near the major towns and cities? Extrapolating the U.K. AEA estimate with this amount gives a figure of potentially 3 million extra deaths from inhaling DU dust in Iraq alone, not including Afghanistan. This is about 11% of Iraq's total population of 27 million. Dan Bishop, Ph.d chemist for IDUST feels that this estimate may be low, if the long life of DU dust is considered. In Afghanistan, the concentration in some areas is greater than Iraq.

What can an otherwise healthy person expect when inhaling the deadly dust? Captain Terry Riordon was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces serving in Gulf War I. He passed away in April 1999 at age 45. Terry left Canada a very fit man who did cross-country skiing and ran in marathons. On his return only two months later he could barely walk.

He returned to Canada in February 1991 with documented loss of motor control, chronic fatigue, respiratory difficulties, chest pain, difficulty breathing, sleep problems, short-term memory loss, testicle pain, body pains, aching bones, diarrhea, and depression. After his death, depleted uranium contamination was discovered in his lungs and bones. For eight years he suffered his innumerable ailments and struggled with the military bureaucracy and the system to get proper diagnosis and treatment. He had arranged, upon his death, to bequeath his body to the UMRC. Through his gift, the UMRC was able to obtain conclusive evidence that inhaling fine particles of depleted uranium dust completely destroyed his heath. How many Terry Riordans are out there among the troops being exposed, not to mention Iraqi and Afghan civilians?

Inhaling the dust will not kill large numbers of Iraqi and Afghan civilians right away, any more than it did Captain Riordan. Rather, what we will see is vast numbers of people who are chronically and severely ill, having their life spans drastically shortened, many with multiple cancers.

Melissa Sterry, another sick veteran, served for six months at a supply base in Kuwait during the winter of 1991-92. Part of her job with the National Guard's Combat Equipment Company "A" was to clean out tanks and other armored vehicles that had been used during the war, preparing them for storage.

She said she swept out the armored vehicles, cleaning up dust, sand and debris, sometimes being ordered to help bury contaminated parts. In a telephone interview, she stated that after researching depleted uranium she chose not to take the military's test because she could not trust the results. It is alarming that Melissa was stationed in Kuwait, not Iraq. Cleaning out tanks with DU dust was enough to make her ill.

In, 2003, the Christian Science Monitor sent reporters to Iraq to investigate long-term effects of depleted uranium. Staff writer Scott Peterson saw children playing on top of a burnt-out tank near a vegetable stand on the outskirts of Baghdad, a tank that had been destroyed by armor-piercing shells coated with depleted uranium. Wearing his mask and protective clothing, he pointed his Geiger counter toward the tank. It registered 1,000 times the normal background radiation. If the troops were on a mission of mercy to bring democracy to Iraq, wouldn"t keeping children away from such dangers be the top priority?

The laws of war prohibit the use of weapons that have deadly and inhumane effects beyond the field of battle. Nor can weapons be legally deployed in war when they are known to remain active, or cause harm after the war concludes. It is no surprise that the Japanese Court found President Bush guilty of war crimes.

Dr. Alim Yacoub of Basra University conducted an epidemiological study into incidences of malignancies in children under fifteen years old, in the Basra area (an area bombed with DU during the first Gulf War). They found over the 1990 to 1999 period, there was a 242% rise. That was before the recent invasion.
In Kosovo, similar spikes in cancer and birth defects were noticed by numerous international experts, although the quantity of DU weapons used was only a small fraction of what was used in Iraq.


FIELD STUDY RESULTS FROM AFGHANISTAN

Verifiable statistics for Iraq will remain elusive for some time, but widespread field studies in Afghanistan point to the existence of a large scale public health disaster. In May of 2002, the UMRC (Uranium Medical Research Center) sent a field team to interview and examine residents and internally displaced people in Afghanistan. The UMRC field team began by first identifying several hundred people suffering from illnesses and medical conditions displaying clinical symptoms which are considered to be characteristic of radiation exposure. To investigate the possibility that the symptoms were due to radiation sickness, the UMRC team collected urine specimens and soil samples, transporting them to an independent research lab in England.

UMRC's Field Team found Afghan civilians with acute symptoms of radiation poisoning, along with chronic symptoms of internal uranium contamination, including congenital problems in newborns. Local civilians reported large, dense dust clouds and smoke plumes rising from the point of impact, an acrid smell, followed by burning of the nasal passages, throat and upper respiratory tract. Subjects in all locations presented identical symptom profiles and chronologies. The victims reported symptoms including pain in the cervical column, upper shoulders and basal area of the skull, lower back/kidney pain, joint and muscle weakness, sleeping difficulties, headaches, memory problems and disorientation.

Two additional scientific study teams were sent to Afghanistan. The first arrived in June 2002, concentrating on the Jalalabad region. The second arrived four months later, broadening the study to include the capital Kabul, which has a population of nearly 3.5 million people. The city itself contains the highest recorded number of fixed targets during Operation Enduring Freedom. For the study's purposes, the vicinity of three major bomb sites were examined. It was predicted that signatures of depleted or enriched uranium would be found in the urine and soil samples taken during the research. The team was unprepared for the shock of its findings, which indicated in both Jalalabad and Kabul, DU was causing the high levels of illness. Tests taken from a number of Jalalabad subjects showed concentrations 400% to 2000% above that for normal populations, amounts which have not been recorded in civilian studies before.

Those in Kabul who were directly exposed to US-British precision bombing showed extreme signs of contamination, consistent with uranium exposure. These included pains in joints, back/kidney pain, muscle weakness, memory problems and confusion and disorientation. Those exposed to the bombing report symptoms of flu-type illnesses, bleeding, runny noses and blood-stained mucous. How many of these people will suffer a painful and early death from cancer? Even the study team itself complained of similar symptoms during their stay. Most of these symptoms last for days or months.

In August of 2002, UMRC completed its preliminary analysis of the results from Nangarhar. Without exception, every person donating urine specimens tested positive for uranium contamination. The specific results indicated an astoundingly high level of contamination; concentrations were 100 to 400 times greater than those of the Gulf War Veterans tested in 1999. A researcher reported. "We took both soil and biological samples, and found considerable presence in urine samples of radioactivity; the heavy concentration astonished us. They were beyond our wildest imagination."

In the fall of 2002, the UMRC field team went back to Afghanistan for a broader survey, and revealed a potentially larger exposure than initially anticipated. Approximately 30% of those interviewed in the affected areas displayed symptoms of radiation sickness. New born babies were among those displaying symptoms, with village elders reporting that over 25% of the infants were inexplicably ill.

How widespread and extensive is the exposure? A quote from the UMRC field report reads:

"The UMRC field team was shocked by the breadth of public health impacts coincident with the bombing. Without exception, at every bombsite investigated, people are ill. A significant portion of the civilian population presents symptoms consistent with internal contamination by uranium."

In Afghanistan, unlike Iraq, UMRC lab results indicated high concentrations of NON-DEPLETED URANIUM, with the concentrations being much higher than in DU victims from Iraq. Afghanistan was used as a testing ground for a new generation of "bunker buster" bombs containing high concentrations of other uranium alloys.

"A significant portion of the civilian population"? It appears that by going after a handful of terrorists in Afghanistan we have poisoned a huge number of innocent civilians, with a disproportionate number of them being children.

The military has found depleted uranium in the urine of some soldiers but contends it was not enough to make them seriously ill in most cases. Critics have asked for more sensitive, more expensive testing.

------------------------------------

According to an October 2004 Dispatch from the Italian Military Health Observatory, a total of 109 Italian soldiers have died thus far due to exposure to depleted uranium. A spokesman at the Military Health Observatory, Domenico Leggiero, states "The total of 109 casualties exceeds the total number of persons dying as a consequence of road accidents. Anyone denying the significance of such data is purely acting out of ill faith, and the truth is that our soldiers are dying out there due to a lack of adequate protection against depleted uranium". Members of the Observatory have petitioned for an urgent hearing "in order to study effective prevention and safeguard measures aimed at reducing the death-toll amongst our serving soldiers".

There were only 3,000 Italian soldiers sent to Iraq, and they were there for a short time. The number of 109 represents about 3.6% of the total. If the same percentage of Iraqis get a similar exposure, that would amount to 936,000. As Iraqis are permanently living in the same contaminated environment, their percentage will be higher.

The Pentagon/DoD have interfered with UMRC's ability to have its studies published by managing, a progressive and persistent misinformation program in the press against UMRC, and through the use of its control of science research grants to refute UMRC's scientific findings and destroy the reputation of UMRC's scientific staff, physicians and laboratories. UMRC is the first independent research organization to find Depleted Uranium in the bodies of US, UK and Canadian Gulf War I veterans and has subsequently, following Operation Iraqi Freedom, found Depleted Uranium in the water, soils and atmosphere of Iraq as well as biological samples donated by Iraqi civilians. Yet the first thing that comes up on Internet searches are these supposed "studies repeatedly showing DU to be harmless." The technique is to approach the story as a debate between government and independent experts in which public interest is stimulated by polarizing the issues rather than telling the scientific and medical truth. The issues are systematically confused and misinformed by government, UN regulatory agencies (WHO, UNEP, IAEA, CDC, DOE, etc) and defense sector (military and the weapons developers and manufacturers).

Dr. Yuko Fujita, an assistant professor at Keio University, Japan who examined the effects of radioactivity in Iraq from May to June, 2003, said : "I doubt that Iraq is fabricating data because in fact there are many children suffering from leukemia in hospitals," Fujita said. "As a result of the Iraq war, the situation will be desperate in some five to 10 years."

The March 14, 2004 Tokyo Citizen's Tribunal that "convicted" President Bush gave the following summation regarding DU weapons: (This court was a citizen's court with no binding legal authority)

1. Their use has indiscriminate effects;

2. Their use is out of proportion with the pursuit of military objectives;

3. Their use adversely affects the environment in a widespread, long term and severe manner;

4. Their use causes superfluous injury and unnecessary suffering.

Two years ago, President Bush withdrew the United States as a signatory to the International Criminal Court's statute, which has been ratified by all other Western democracies. The White House actually seeks to immunize U.S. leaders from war crimes prosecutions entirely. It has also demanded express immunity from ICC prosecution for American nationals.

CONCLUSIONS:

If terrorists succeeded in spreading something throughout the U.S. that ended up causing hundreds of thousands of cancer cases and birth defects over a period of many years, they would be guilty of a crime against humanity that far surpasses the Sept. 11th attacks in scope and severity. Although not deliberate, with our military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have done just that. If the physical environment is so unsafe and unhealthy that one cannot safely breath, then the outer trappings of democracy have little meaning. At least under Saddam, the Iraqi people could stay healthy and conceive normal children. Few Americans are aware that in getting rid of Saddam, we left something much worse in his place.
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guest0209
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you talking about, Nefarious. Your whole thread is 'scaremongering'.

Your whole post is too long and people will lose interest in its repeatitive, politically motivated nature. So I will pick the part that made me laugh the most to prove how stupid the theme of the article really is:

Quote:
Imagine a far worse scenario. Terrorists acquire a million pounds of the deadly dust and scatter it in populated areas throughout the U.S. Hundreds of children report symptoms


What are they going to do? Collect a million pounds of dust, use bulldozers to put the dust in the back of dump trucks which then drive from the desert of a landlocked country such as Afghanistan all the way to some port where it is loaded on a Cargo ship bound for the US, in what would of course have to be the largest bulk logistical operation in the history of the world... all while maintaining secrecy from foriegn intelligence agencies? Yeah... this is really likely to occur!!!!
You scare no one!!

And you can say what you like about D.U, but compared to weapons of the past our weapons are getting cleaner, greener and smarter all the time. We are past the days of 'agent orange' and using white phosphurus in large proportions, and chemical/biological/nuclear munnitions are not used as they were during ww2, iran/iraq, iraq/kuwait wars.

Infact, It may interest you to read up on BAE's weapons programme which is researching not only weapons that are not harmful for the environment, but also weapons which put out a very low noise when in the air and when exploding!!!

Like I said, You have just read a few articles on some anti war site and now you think you are an expert on the issue.
Your article focusses on Iraq and Afghanistan and makes virtually no mention of some of the biggest wars in modern history, such as Iran/Iraq, and the constant military activities by Russia.
It is more anti-american doctrine and it really is becoming boring.

If Saddam succeeded in building another nuclear reactor and used that to make dirty weapons or even a nuke itself, what do you think the environmental result would have been when he decided to use it hmm?

You almost defeat your own argument in a few obvious ways.
1) You claim to be concerned about the Environment, Yet you only focus on issues where you can attribute blame mostly against the USA, and issues which are on a far less devistating scale than some of the REAL enviro concerns we should have.

2) When that fails, You claim to be a humanitarian who is 'concerned' about the health of Iraqi and Afghani children, But you make no mention of the worst Humanitarian events in Countries such as Suddan or Nigeria or Somalia, where Islamic Militia's are conducting their own style of ethnic and religious cleansing by stabbing, raping, torturing, murdering thousands and thousands of people... While the LUCKY ones end up in refugee camps which constantly move to escape attack and where dozens of people die each day due to hunger, disease and thirst.

You are not talking about the tens of thousands of barrels of radioactive waste that Russia has stored in Barrels in warehouses that are secured only with chains and padlocks.

When you come back with something less politically motivated then people might be interested, but it is apparent to even the most left winged fool that you are just using the latest political fad to attack the US military. I would love to know which country you are from, and how these 'child deforming' weapons have liberated/saved you and yours at some point in history.
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 206


PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest0209 wrote:
What are you talking about, Nefarious. Your whole thread is 'scaremongering'.


Gee - your's seem to be 'assholism' or is it 'head in the sandism?' is there a difference?- each to their own I guess Rolling Eyes

guest0209 wrote:
Your whole post is too long and people will lose interest in its repeatitive, politically motivated nature. So I will pick the part that made me laugh the most to prove how stupid the theme of the article really is:


Ha ha ha ha - this is where you basically signal to people that they shouldn't bother reading it for themselves - you've got it all summed up for them - snigger

guest0209 wrote:
Quote:
Imagine a far worse scenario. Terrorists acquire a million pounds of the deadly dust and scatter it in populated areas throughout the U.S. Hundreds of children report symptoms


guest0209 wrote:
What are they going to do? Collect a million pounds of dust, use bulldozers to put the dust in the back of dump trucks which then drive from the desert of a landlocked country such as Afghanistan all the way to some port where it is loaded on a Cargo ship bound for the US, in what would of course have to be the largest bulk logistical operation in the history of the world... all while maintaining secrecy from foriegn intelligence agencies? Yeah... this is really likely to occur!!!! You scare no one!!


Are you a moron? That part of the article was just a scenario put forward to say 'hey, imagine this happening to you - now turn it around and realise this is what has been done to the Iraqis. That you have taken it as you have just tickles me silly!

guest0209 wrote:
And you can say what you like about D.U, but compared to weapons of the past our weapons are getting cleaner, greener and smarter all the time. We are past the days of 'agent orange' and using white phosphurus in large proportions, and chemical/biological/nuclear munnitions are not used as they were during ww2, iran/iraq, iraq/kuwait wars.


Oh well golly gee mister, that makes it all ok then doesn't it - cos the means of murdering others is not as BAD as it was before - what kind of atavistic mentality is that?

guest0209 wrote:
Like I said, You have just read a few articles on some anti war site and now you think you are an expert on the issue.
Your article focusses on Iraq and Afghanistan and makes virtually no mention of some of the biggest wars in modern history, such as Iran/Iraq, and the constant military activities by Russia.
It is more anti-american doctrine and it really is becoming boring.


And you - apparently - are an expert on everything? Yeah, an expert in republican propaganda and sanitization. How lame are you - virtually no mention - wouldn't it have just been fantastic if you could have said I made no mention? Shame you had to try and attack me with 'virtually no mention', not that I am the author of the articles in any case - if you want to attack anyone attack the authors and the science leaders who contributed to their articles - but then that's a little more difficult isn't it eh? There are multiple articles here from multiple sources - you can denounce them all as anti-war sites if you wish. I could pour heaps more articles from more diverse sites into this thread, all saying variants of the same key points and drown you in your protestations - in fact that would be sublimely satisfying. Fact is, most are recent articles, so it is natural that recent events are salient to them.

guest0209 wrote:
If Saddam succeeded in building another nuclear reactor and used that to make dirty weapons or even a nuke itself, what do you think the environmental result would have been when he decided to use it hmm?


Yay - good for you - you used a what if - a what if this guy who was meant to have wmd's, had done this or that, good thing we took him out just in case he ever tried to do these things eh?

guest0209 wrote:
You almost defeat your own argument in a few obvious ways.
1) You claim to be concerned about the Environment, Yet you only focus on issues where you can attribute blame mostly against the USA, and issues which are on a far less devistating scale than some of the REAL enviro concerns we should have.


Exsqueeze me? You have no idea how much I am interested in, or in what breadth. I would ask you to put your money where you mouth is and tell me what you consider to be the enviro concerns that are REAL that we should care about instead, instead of poisoning the earth for billions of years to come that is. But I doubt you would bother.
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guest0209
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, I will be happy to reply to you. And I will endeavor to do so without stooping to your level and using personal insults as a means of a response, as you have done.
And thankyou for trying to make it look as if you have addressed everything I said. However, Anyone who read your reply will note that you have chosen to ignore the key points that were raised to rebutt your argument.

Quote:
Ha ha ha ha - this is where you basically signal to people that they shouldn't bother reading it for themselves - you've got it all summed up for them - snigger


I think you underestimate alot of forum readers. Anyone with a bit of common sense can come to the same conclusions as me.

Quote:
Are you a moron? That part of the article was just a scenario put forward to say 'hey, imagine this happening to you - now turn it around and realise this is what has been done to the Iraqis. That you have taken it as you have just tickles me silly!


Oh so it was a 'what if' scenario? Did you not just attack me in your last post for using a 'what if' scenario? Ok if you want to be hypocritical. You may use this as a tool to support your argument, but how many people you fool is a different story.
We have done it to the Iraqis? According to International Law, and the International court of justice, Our actions are the responsibility of Saddam Hussein, and we have commited no crime using weapons containing D.U.
Maybe your thread should be one about International Law, instead of attacking the countries that Obide by it and defending those that don't?

Quote:
Oh well golly gee mister, that makes it all ok then doesn't it - cos the means of murdering others is not as BAD as it was before - what kind of atavistic mentality is that?


Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou!!
You have just proven to us that this is all apart of your anti-war stance, and not really about the environment!! It did not take long for your TRUE position to break through the BS did it?
Let me guess... Next you will say that you support the troops, not the war, while at the same time insinuating that they are murderers??
By rights, I should stop typing, as I have just succeeded in highlighting your true agenda, but then you will only accuse me of having no rebuttal and taking the easy way out, so I shall continue.

Quote:
And you - apparently - are an expert on everything? Yeah, an expert in republican propaganda and sanitization.


Well I did expect this. Assumptions are what you have based alot of your thread on, so It was logical to expect you would continue with them.
No I am no republican. My country does not even have a 'republican party' Very Happy
And I see you questioning my knowledge and experience without giving us any insight about yourself. How do you plan to discredit me when you have done nothing to credit yourself?

Quote:
How lame are you - virtually no mention - wouldn't it have just been fantastic if you could have said I made no mention? Shame you had to try and attack me with 'virtually no mention'


You are now focussing on attacking words which could have been interpreted in a variety of ways. This is called 'deflection'. In other words, you have no rebuttal so you try to make out as if you have addressed this statement, without actually addressing it. The more I read, the more it seems you are a politician, or a wannabe! Probably the later.

Quote:
not that I am the author of the articles in any case - if you want to attack anyone attack the authors and the science leaders who contributed to their articles - but then that's a little more difficult isn't it eh? There are multiple articles here from multiple sources - you can denounce them all as anti-war sites if you wish.


Not at all!! I have not questioned the validity of the information you have given, and am aware that DU poses health and environmental problems. The extent of which you have exaggerated.
I am not questioning the authors. You have not provided any citations so we have no idea where these articles came from. Some of these articles may have been researched for the US military, or BAE, in an attempt to learn about the environmental effects/costs.
What YOU have done, is compile them into one big anti-war spiel, and tried to disguse your spiel as being of 'environmental and humanitarian concern'. This is why I questioned your motives, and not those of the individual author, which would be hard to do as there are no citations.

What I am questioning is why you make out that this is the worlds most significant environmental issue, but this was answered when you made your anti-war statement early in your last thread.

Quote:
I could pour heaps more articles from more diverse sites into this thread, all saying variants of the same key points and drown you in your protestations - in fact that would be sublimely satisfying. Fact is, most are recent articles, so it is natural that recent events are salient to them.


And I could probably pour heaps of articles regarding the environmental effects of cows farting, as this is a major contributer to greenhouse emmissions, yet I choose not to as I have no agenda other than to highlight what you are really trying to do here. Something you have just done with your last post!

Quote:
Yay - good for you - you used a what if


As you did with your 1 million pounds of terrorist dust comment.

Quote:
a what if this guy who was meant to have wmd's, had done this or that, good thing we took him out just in case he ever tried to do these things eh?


Well considering that the guy has at one time or another used every single weapon in his arsenal...yep, I'd say it was a fairly likely 'what if'.

Quote:
I would ask you to put your money where you mouth is and tell me what you consider to be the enviro concerns that are REAL that we should care about instead, instead of poisoning the earth for billions of years to come that is. But I doubt you would bother.


Sure I will. Afterall, this is what the topic was supposed to be about, right?Or not. But sure Very Happy

In my opinion, the biggest environmental concerns (not in order) are human consumption of natural resources and deforestation without 'replenishing'.
The growing hole in the Ozone layer.
The assumption that human activities are effecting climate change.
Major oil leaks into oceans and the effect on natural life/infrastructure such as reefs/animals.
The containment and desposal of hazardous waste including chemical, biological and radioactive, particularly from poor nations, specifically Russia.

YOU are making out that DU and the effects of war are the most damaging environmental issue we face which is complete BS.
In a 2005 poll conducted in November by CNN, not one single person cited DU as the most worrying environmental concern.
Now if your thread was designed to make people aware of DU, then I would say good on you. But we have seen it is nothing more than an anti-war and anti-American 'whinge' disguised as an environmental concern.
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 206


PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest0209 wrote:
Sure, I will be happy to reply to you. And I will endeavor to do so without stooping to your level and using personal insults as a means of a response, as you have done.


Yes, after all, you've already stooped to that level on this board before I see. Glass houses, stones and all that.

guest0209 wrote:
And thankyou for trying to make it look as if you have addressed everything I said. However, Anyone who read your reply will note that you have chosen to ignore the key points that were raised to rebutt your argument.


Your multi-pronged tangents just attempt to draw the focus away from the point of the thread - DU - and hassle it into oblivion. I won't engage with you like this after this post.

Quote:
Ha ha ha ha - this is where you basically signal to people that they shouldn't bother reading it for themselves - you've got it all summed up for them - snigger


guest0209 wrote:
I think you underestimate alot of forum readers. Anyone with a bit of common sense can come to the same conclusions as me.


Ergo anyone who does not agree with you has no common-sense - I wouldn't be so cheeky to assume so much as you seem to.

Quote:
Are you a moron? That part of the article was just a scenario put forward to say 'hey, imagine this happening to you - now turn it around and realise this is what has been done to the Iraqis. That you have taken it as you have just tickles me silly!


guest0209 wrote:
Oh so it was a 'what if' scenario? Did you not just attack me in your last post for using a 'what if' scenario? Ok if you want to be hypocritical. You may use this as a tool to support your argument, but how many people you fool is a different story.'


I used the tool? No - Doug Westerman used that tool, it was from his article, I put in a hyperlink to the original source. You talk about me not providing citations - I provide hyperlinks to the sources on the net that they came from - if you want to find out if they were published in specific peer reviewed journals then be it on you, not I. Although I doubt you would find much in peer reviewed articles given the comments from some of the articles above it appears that there has been a heavy and shameful attempt to sweep the issue under the carpet.

Quote:
Oh well golly gee mister, that makes it all ok then doesn't it - cos the means of murdering others is not as BAD as it was before - what kind of atavistic mentality is that?


guest0209 wrote:
Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou!!
You have just proven to us that this is all apart of your anti-war stance, and not really about the environment!! It did not take long for your TRUE position to break through the BS did it? Let me guess... Next you will say that you support the troops, not the war, while at the same time insinuating that they are murderers?? By rights, I should stop typing, as I have just succeeded in highlighting your true agenda, but then you will only accuse me of having no rebuttal and taking the easy way out, so I shall continue.


Yes, I guess you could say I am anti-war - I see no redeeming quality in it. It does massive amounts of damage not only to people but the environment. I do not see war and the environment as mutually exclusive because nothing is exclusive of our environment. You will note that I say 'war', as in war in general.

Quote:
And you - apparently - are an expert on everything? Yeah, an expert in republican propaganda and sanitization.


guest0209 wrote:
Well I did expect this. Assumptions are what you have based alot of your thread on, so It was logical to expect you would continue with them. No I am no republican. My country does not even have a 'republican party' Very Happy And I see you questioning my knowledge and experience without giving us any insight about yourself. How do you plan to discredit me when you have done nothing to credit yourself?


Given the amount of 'we' and 'our troops' comments you have made and how stridently you defend anything anti-Bush, it was an easy assumption to make that you were American - at the very least you come from a country that is in the coalition of the willing.

Quote:
How lame are you - virtually no mention - wouldn't it have just been fantastic if you could have said I made no mention? Shame you had to try and attack me with 'virtually no mention'


guest0209 wrote:
You are now focussing on attacking words which could have been interpreted in a variety of ways. This is called 'deflection'. In other words, you have no rebuttal so you try to make out as if you have addressed this statement, without actually addressing it. The more I read, the more it seems you are a politician, or a wannabe! Probably the later.


I learnt that trick from reading your posts.

Quote:
not that I am the author of the articles in any case - if you want to attack anyone attack the authors and the science leaders who contributed to their articles - but then that's a little more difficult isn't it eh? There are multiple articles here from multiple sources - you can denounce them all as anti-war sites if you wish.


guest0209 wrote:
Not at all!! I have not questioned the validity of the information you have given, and am aware that DU poses health and environmental problems. The extent of which you have exaggerated.
I am not questioning the authors. You have not provided any citations so we have no idea where these articles came from. Some of these articles may have been researched for the US military, or BAE, in an attempt to learn about the environmental effects/costs.
What YOU have done, is compile them into one big anti-war spiel, and tried to disguse your spiel as being of 'environmental and humanitarian concern'. This is why I questioned your motives, and not those of the individual author, which would be hard to do as there are no citations.


I have put forth - what is it - four hyper-linked articles. The arguments are theirs, not mine - don't try and twist it otherwise.

Quote:
Yay - good for you - you used a what if


guest0209 wrote:
As you did with your 1 million pounds of terrorist dust comment.


No - as Westerman did - if you are going on the attack at least be able to show that you have the ability to read and absorb and get your accusations right. If this isn't an indication that people should read stuff for themselves instead of your summations, I don't know what is. If people have an interest and feel that they want to find out more about DU than the articles I have posted here, then I am sure they will follow that up on their own without any of your or my interpretations.

Quote:
a what if this guy who was meant to have wmd's, had done this or that, good thing we took him out just in case he ever tried to do these things eh?


guest0209 wrote:
Well considering that the guy has at one time or another used every single weapon in his arsenal...yep, I'd say it was a fairly likely 'what if'.


Perhaps so, but then neither has his country used the widest weaponry arsenal available against multiple countries has it? He was a little dog with a lot of oil. In this world the bigger dogs eat the littler dogs and then try and convince the other dogs that eating your own kind is ok. Who the good guys are or who the bad guys are is never a simple matter, the world does not turn on such a simple dichotomy and it is propaganda when we try and force it to be evaluated in such terms. I say this to point out the subjectivity with which we interpret acts which, without our actions to dissolve cognitive dissonance and placate our conscience, are regardless nefarious acts

Quote:
I would ask you to put your money where you mouth is and tell me what you consider to be the enviro concerns that are REAL that we should care about instead, instead of poisoning the earth for billions of years to come that is. But I doubt you would bother.


guest0209 wrote:
Sure I will. Afterall, this is what the topic was supposed to be about, right?Or not. But sure Very Happy

In my opinion, the biggest environmental concerns (not in order) are human consumption of natural resources and deforestation without 'replenishing'.
The growing hole in the Ozone layer.
The assumption that human activities are effecting climate change.
Major oil leaks into oceans and the effect on natural life/infrastructure such as reefs/animals.
The containment and desposal of hazardous waste including chemical, biological and radioactive, particularly from poor nations, specifically Russia.

YOU are making out that DU and the effects of war are the most damaging environmental issue we face which is complete BS.
In a 2005 poll conducted in November by CNN, not one single person cited DU as the most worrying environmental concern.
Now if your thread was designed to make people aware of DU, then I would say good on you. But we have seen it is nothing more than an anti-war and anti-American 'whinge' disguised as an environmental concern.


I don't disagree that what you have listed are known environmental issues. My thread is about DU and given DU's use in the military, it is definately anti use of DU missiles - ergo to extend that to anti-war if you wish - I don't agree with war, so I won't argue that. However, I NEVER said that DU was the most damaging environmental issue did I? That is you making assumptions - so I guess we are square on that front.

I wonder what this 'we have seen it' is all about? Are you a collective of people writing responses to my posts or do you wish to give strength to your arguments by imagining that others agree with you, without first seeking their independent consensus?

As to what country I am from, none of your darn business.
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Nefarious
FemaleFirst Chatter (200+ Posts)


Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 206


PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this article when I was googling 'crispy critters'. It's not related to DU, but it is related to war and I found it to be a very raw and honest account of a soldier's experiences. I thought it is another perspective and something of a departure for me to post, but a story worth reading regardless.

www.theava.com/04/0915-warcrimes.html - 13k -

September 15, 2004
War Crimes?
by Bruce Patterson

I remember Cockburn's September 1st article entitled, "John Kerry, War Criminal-in-Chief," and I too thought it was in bad taste. I mean, the right wing was already doing a pretty fair hatchet job on the poor guy. But I'm not contradicting Cockburn because the man's a walking encyclopedia and he'd chew up a self-educated hillbilly like me and spit me out like a grapeseed. Still, those who consider the execution of wounded or helpless enemy soldiers to be a "war crime" are being sort of — well, rather fastidious.

If you are a foot solder and you survive enough battles, you might see a close friend who's been shot into so many pieces that, watching his exposed lung struggling to heave up and down inside of his exploded popcorn chest might make you want to raise your rifle and blow him away. Blow him away just to get him out of your sight if nothing else. Now, if you did, would that be a war crime?

When it comes to finishing off severely wounded enemy soldiers, that's always been a routine part of cleaning up a battlefield. I was lucky in that I served with a hunter-killer outfit and we spent nearly all of our time out in the jungle playing cat and mouse with the North Vietnamese Army. My war was mostly soldier-to-soldier, in other words, and you can't really commit atrocities on soldiers. Soldiers are fair game.

For example, say you are on a recon patrol, you clear a rise, raise your binoculars and, in rice paddies 2,000 meters away, you see four platoons of enemy infantry spread out and marching your way. You get on your radio, call in the coordinates and within a couple of minutes a battery of .155mm Howitzer cannons has spun around and the first salvo is arcing overhead. The shells land on target and in their impact domes you see bits and pieces of human beings flying like confetti. Does this mean that you immediately cease firing because you know that lying in those paddies are wounded and helpless soldiers who are more than ready and willing to surrender? Are you crazy? If I remember right (you didn't want to melt their barrels) our 155s fired four rounds per minute. So you'd order a 60 second barrage and that would bring in about 48 more shells (each with about a 50 meter "kill radius"). Next you'd begin "walking" your artillery away in ever expanding rings, trying to pick off any survivors who were running away. You'd search the nearby terrain and, if you saw anyplace that looked like a decent place for the enemy stragglers to re-group, then you'd pin point the locations on your map and schedule them for some future "Harassment and Interdiction" artillery strikes. Meanwhile, American fighter bombers, fresh on the scene, would start mopping up. Any of the enemy soldiers who had managed to make it into a tree line and to burrow into the roots would now be BBQed by napalm. After the fighter bombers had done their fiery thing, large splotches of green jungle would be left charred into black and white. Walk through the burnt spots later on and here and there in the ashes you'd see the lumps that we liked calling "crispy critters."

To summarize, as a Forward Observer you'd do all in your power to kill each and every last one of the enemy soldiers. If they were helpless, then that only made the job a whole lot easier and a whole lot less dangerous and so a whole lot more fun. But was it a "war crime"? Was it an atrocity, a massacre? Call it what you like, but such a use of American artillery was nothing other than Standard Operating Procedure and, if the body count in this case turned out to be half as good as you hoped, then you'd be put in for a medal, rewarded with a three day pass in town (payable the next time you got near a safe town) and given a battlefield promotion.

Another note on the uses of artillery: when in 1975 in the Central Highlands the NVA/VC captured batteries of 155s during their final drive toward Saigon, the first thing they did was turn the big guns on the roads jammed with columns of fleeing civilian refugees. Using tactics identical to those used by the Nazis during their "Blitzkrieg" in Poland, the NVA/VC clogged the roads with flaming civilian wrecks, the dead and the dying. By doing so they prevented the South Vietnamese Army, which had broken and was running for its life, from escaping to the coast and reaching reinforcements. Nobody knows how many hundreds, or thousands, of civilians were slaughtered, but the ARVN soldiers did not escape